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Wednesday, April 27, 2005

MEAT was right -- Hahn is behind the Villar Recall

This Chief has never in his 62 year history of Los Angeles City engagement seen anything like this. Yesterday at the Koreatown debate which was a slugfest -- Recall Villaraigosa supporters were handing out documents that were paid for by Jim Hahn for Mayor 2005.

On the bottom of the flier it read --- "Printing Paid for by Jim Hahn for Mayor 2005 - General 5518 Wilshire Blvd Los Angeles CA 90036 * ID # 1275192

From day one this recall emerged MEAT was quoted all over this blog claiming that Jim Hahn operatives were behind this -- that Julie Wong was seen early on in an Eagle Rock meeting with recall backers and Sleazy Bar owners were initially behind it as well.

The recall has 9 days left to submit their signatures -- but we now know who is funding the recall.

Jim Hahn.

59 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Bull Shit!

April 27, 2005 1:45 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

You must have poopy on your glasses if you don't get this one. If you've been wondering how desperate can Hahn get? Hahn just answered.

April 27, 2005 1:47 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

What were the documents? Recall documents, or Hahn for Mayor documents? More weasel words. You'd make the real Parker roll over in his flag-draped coffin.

Just because someone is FOR the recall doesn't mean they can't be FOR keeping Hahn as mayor, and there would be NO connection.

So some recall people want to show there's an alternative for mayor, and they pick up some Hahn fliers.

Unless you can be more specific, your post thread is the biggest pile of innuendo crap yet.

More weasel words from the weaseliest blog poster in the city. You people ALMOST make TRUTHLESS TONY look honest (and that's IMpossible).

Were they also being handed out by CITY WORKERS ON CITY TIME!

Ha!

April 27, 2005 1:49 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

How utterly amateurish!

They didn't even find a front or an I.E. to do this, how naive.

This never would have happened if Jim Hahn was alive!

April 27, 2005 1:50 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

DAMN, indict James Hahn, some Anti-Villaraigosa recall supporters ALSO want Hahn to be mayor -- CONSPIRACY, CONSPIRACY, a Hahn plot under every rock!

April 27, 2005 1:51 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

YOU GUYS ARE FULL OF BULLSHIT. A lot of people didn't even know that there was a debate yesterday. In fact Hahn said to a media reporter that Antonio didn't want to do any more debates.

THIS IS DESPERATION ON MEAT AND YOUR PART. HOW DARE YOU OUT RIGHT LIE ABOUT THIS. I HOPE THE RECALL PEOPLE SUE YOUR ASSES. ANTONIO IS RUNNING SCARED AND YOU GUYS ARE RUNNING WITH HIM. Yeah, Hahn is a lot smarter then that idiots! Antonio is not.

April 27, 2005 1:54 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

BOGUS post, if Hahn was behind it, why is it "broke and flailing."

Talking out of both sides of your mouth.

A "corrupt" Hahn, like your little fantasy minds envision could figure out some way to funnel money to the recall -- enough to make it at least viable enough to get press.

SO much B.S.

What's the matter, Parker.. no GOOD news for loser Tony, losing a percentage point EVERY damn day since the lat L.A. Times poll -- you had to invent something to turn the tide back for him.

WON'T HELP. He's the suicidal citywide candidate. Destined to stay in some backwater position in Sacra mento until his retirement pension kicks in and he heads for the Old Socialist Home and Ace and Parke visit him with flowers and "remember when we ALMOST won the mayor's job, TWICE" stories.

April 27, 2005 1:55 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Chief Parker, MEAT and Mayor Sam must have sat and thought "how do we take the heat off Antonio?"

The guys running this website are a bunch of cowards who attack women just because they support another candidate and have no balls. Why don't you start acting like men? Oh, I forgot you don't know how.

Idiots! The media know Hahn isn't behind the recall. This ploy to help Antonio and distract from his troubles are not going to work.

Why did Floridians give $179,000 to Villaraigosa?
Employees of hotel gift shop operator -- with ties to concessions at LAX -- come up with $41,000 for a candidate who has questioned Mayor James Hahn's fund-raising.

April 27, 2005 2:00 PM  

Blogger Mayor Sam said:

Sounds like someone got caught!

April 27, 2005 2:00 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

The day someone posts a "MEAT WAS RIGHT" heading, you know they've lost their frickin' mind from the sheer frustration of backing the only major Latino candidate in the city of L.A. who could NOT beat a battered James Hahn in a mayor's race this year... in a majority Latino city. How sardonic/ironic/pathetic!

MEAT is NEVER right... always LEFT, but NEVER right!

You prove that to me, and I'll JOIN one of the 80 INVISIBLE neighborhood watches in CD14 and help fund the NEXT 81 percent approval rating poll!

HA...MEAT and Chief Faker, like ADV and Kerry -- two losers hooked to each other for worse or worser.

April 27, 2005 2:00 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

You're right Mayor Sam, Parker just got caught pushing incredulity past the edge of the outer limits.

Not only THAT, illegal aliens (from Mars) are behind the recall, too -- and they've placed ICs in the back of ADV's head that keep making him STEP ON HIS OWN DICK in public debates

April 27, 2005 2:03 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

WHAT DID THE FLYERS SAY?

A) RECALL?

or

B) HAHN FOR MAYOR?

If A -- no need to have an election, Hahn is impeachable.

If B -- shut down the blog and go play with yourself in the dark. You've lost all credibility.

PUT UP, OR SHUT UP!

April 27, 2005 2:05 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

...Sounds like someone got caught"

Bullshit! Sounds like maybe Antonio's people being the crooked, theives they are possibly put out those flyers themselves.

Seems like your Hahnwatch isn't working. No one is posting. You should delete this thread like you have others for being blatanly false

April 27, 2005 2:06 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Yeah, Hahn watch... HA!

Go check out the action on the Hahnwatch blog, if you're into being a peering tom. Protected from hordes of Anti-ADV anons, the Hahn-haters are engaging in a "safer" (less obstructed with facts and reason) form of mutual mastur-blogging.

April 27, 2005 2:11 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

This is Eliseo Villanueva Chairperson of the recall Comittee

Boy that is really BS! You all AV supportors are really desperate to try and pin the recall on Hahn. He has not put in one cent for the recall. and I personally do not know any bar owners that have contributed and money for the recall. This includes nothing from Pacheco or even Alarcon. This recall is strickly from Grass roots CD14. Keep running Scared AV!

Eliseo Villanueva

April 27, 2005 2:11 PM  

Blogger Phil Krakover said:

How much fun is this?

I haven't had this much fun since Gil Lindsay died.

I was talking to Kenny Hahn the other day, and he cannot understand how his simple son got himself into a spot where he has to rely on Miguel Contreras to fund and run an I.E. in order to have a chance to be elected.

Now, Miguel was seen talking to Villaraigosa related people the other day.

Can a new deal be in the works?

Will Miguel go back to his roots and dump Hahn to curry favor with the next mayor?

I think I'll stick around; might even call Maury Weiss to see if he wants to join me.

April 27, 2005 2:13 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

LAOBSERVED.COM......Villaraigosa's Florida money Good piece of enterprise reporting by Copley's David Zahniser, who found that 19 employees of Miami-based Travel Traders, which operates hotel gift shops, are listed as giving $1000 each to Villaraigosa's runoff campaign. The donors included top executives and less well-paid staff such as a help desk manager and an executive assistant. When Zahniser called, most refused to say anything or seemed surprised their names were listed. Most, he found, also had been listed as contributors under a separate company name on the disclosure reports Villaraigosa filed during the primary. As Zahniser points out, if the firms actually made the contributions then put them in the names of employees to get around L.A.'s $1,000 limit — or reimbursed workers for pouring cash into a mayor's race 3,000 miles from Florida — it's against the law here and even gets prosecuted these days. Villaraigosa campaign manager Ace Smith says the workers who didn't answer are entitled to their privacy.

Lavoice.org....Villaraigosa's going to be endorsed Saturday by the guy for whom he virtually ignored his own district while serving as national campaign co-chairman during much of the fall presidential campaign - U.S. Sen. John Kerry

April 27, 2005 2:16 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

That ticked me off... now I AM going to send some money to the recall people, just because MEAT and Parker posted this bogus crap.

Good move, little boys, I'm also going to let some other activists in the community know you're trying to pin THIS bogus charge on Hahn, too (just like all the other bogus charges).

That seems to be the M.O. never PROVE anything, just keep adding to the bogus rumors as soon as the last one is proven to be fantasy.

What's this MEAT/Parker lie in retribution for... Delgadillo seeing to it that the city made a PROFIT off the F-H overbilling, deflating your ONLY actual indictment into nothingness.

Like that other blogger said. ADV's losing a percentage point lead EVERY day -- hiding out from real media and broadcasting expensive paid ads that say NOTHING new. By May Day (ADV's socialist holiday), it's a DEAD HEAT -- and ADV's the one sweating bullets without ANY new ammo.

April 27, 2005 2:17 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Cute "Phil" -- its one thing for the blog owners to play dress-up, but you're really pathetic.

I'll bet you wore mommy's clothes as an adolescent, too. (Probably doing it yet. I just hope she's not IN them).

April 27, 2005 2:19 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

QUICK, QUICK, ANOTHER NEW THREAD, Mayor Sam... Parker got caught beating his MEAT with abother bogus claim against Hahn!

Save the boy, he's hopeless!

Ha!

April 27, 2005 2:20 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Hey Eliseo:

Nine (9) days to go; how many signature do you have?

April 27, 2005 2:20 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

I think Chief Parker and MEAT have a "sweet thing" going on. You know they don't like women and this may be Parker's way of doing something for his honey, MEAT. No other men would stoop this low unless something was in it for them. What did MEAT promise you Chief?

This is a good sign for us Anti-ADV people. If you're this desperate to blame something that HAHN absolutely has nothing to do with then it only tells us you'll do anything to get back at Hahn.

Those TV commercials with Antonio's wife as a teacher are pathetic. Word is she was coersed into doing them. She's had it with this election and who could blame her. A cheating husband who is still having affairs with his campaign staffers. No Class, no education

April 27, 2005 2:23 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

You left the last thread too fast, boys, THIS is a frameup -- not calling ADV a flip-flopper (soon to be endorsed by the BIGGEST flip-flopper of all?)

Together again -- ADV and Kerry, the team that GUARANTEED another 4 years of Bush/Cheney (WMD's and all).

What kind of mayoral candidate can run up an 18 point lead a month before the election and STILL lose?

The kind that "helped" and will be "helped" by a presidential candidate who could LOSE to a moron like Bush, at sub-50 percent approvals, with EVERY major media calling him a liar on chem and bio weapons in Iraq.

They just don't GET any more self-destructive than those TWO.

April 27, 2005 2:27 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Eliseo can't answer -- he's collecting more signatures.

(While ADV's losing ground, citywide)

Ha!

April 27, 2005 2:28 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

SPEAKING OF THAT "alleged" affair with the ADV staffer... HOW come she's not ON his staff anymore in CD14.

Did someone FIND OUT? Did someone threaten to stop making campaign commercials for ADV is he didn't CAN her tight little ass ASAP?

April 27, 2005 2:30 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

The only bullshit is Jim Hahn's bid to save his job. I wish there was somebody else I could vote for in this race, but Villaraigosa would do far better than Slim Jim.

April 27, 2005 2:36 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Villaraigosa can't even do the minimal in his own district. He's never there.

Gotta love KCAL9 for asking the questions this afternoon on the Florida money. Loser ADV people who are the most ruthless assholes in this city showed up to a Hahn press conf. with a board showing Hahn went to an ACLU dinner and gave money. Unlike Antonio, Hahn didn't make excuses and answered the questions. There were some things ACLU did he agree with but he didn't agree with their position on gangs. Antonio would have had Ace, Parke and Nathan drag him out fast without an answer.

April 27, 2005 2:41 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

There IS someone else to vote for now -- see:

Candidate Name
OFFICE OF THE CITY CLERK - ELECTION DIVISION
CITY OF LOS ANGELES
2005 GENERAL MUNICIPAL ELECTION WRITE-IN CANDIDATES
CERTIFIED LIST OF CANDIDATES
As of April 21, 2005

MAYOR

CAESAR SAINT AUGUSTINE DE BUONAPARTE

April 27, 2005 2:42 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

You MUST be right, Chief Parker, Hahn MUST be behind the ADV recall AND one of Tony's Toadies on the LA32 neighborhood council was wearing a Villaraigosa button during neighborhood council meetings, even though there's not supposed to be any electioneering or partisan antics at NCs.

SO, that means ADV is BEHIND her attempt to REACLL a duly elected NC president (one who endorsed Hertzberg, by the way).

Can you spell P-A-Y-B-A-C-K?

Imagine the "coincidence" of that!?

April 27, 2005 2:56 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Someone better copy this thread contents down before IT disappears out of sheer embarrassment for the owners. This one shows RECORD stupidity, but it surely won't last.

April 27, 2005 2:58 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Once again, ... the theme song for the ADV Campaign is Fantasia Barrino's "Baby Mama."

CHORUS:

"I got love for all my baby mamas."
"I got love for all my baby mamas."
"I got love for all my baby mamas."
"I got love for all my baby mamas."

April 27, 2005 3:17 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Careon was El Sereno office "head" field deputy once, in CD14 -- got fired!

Why?

April 27, 2005 3:28 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

OR is Careon one of the ex-staffers now on Laid Peeve of Abcess -- I mean "PAID LEAVE" of absence to work on the campaign.

Maybe I did mean "laid?"

ANYWAY, the council offices have been operating on Skelton krews since the campaign heated up -- I mean "SKELETON" crews.

Or, maybe not?

Anyway, that's one reason they're running YEARS behind on the several funded parke projects -- I meant "PARK" projects.

No, I didn't...

April 27, 2005 3:34 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

No PUT UP? No "proof" (again, and again, and again), that Hahn is "dirty?"

Just some wannabe ADV hacks trying out pablum of Ace and Parke to see if this shit might "stick" with the media?

Thought so.... back to the side yard to make mudpies again, little ones. Save the slime to the masters that have conned people into voting for empty-suit Tony every other time.

April 27, 2005 4:03 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Paul Hernandez who was a field staffer took a paid leave of absence yet he's sending out Antonio e-mails all over on the campaign. He doesn't attend any community meetings. Didn't someone post there are 7 field staffers working on the campaign? If Jenny Careon was fired why was she at the debate on Sat. and not the wife?

April 27, 2005 4:03 PM  

Blogger Mayor Sam said:

Does Jim Hahn have a paid staff person dedicated to this blog?

Oh - maybe he does - that's why the bulk of our hits come from the third floor we are told!

On another note, rumor has it that the Sister City was blocked from City Hall computers for a while until word leaked out and access mysteriously came back on. I hope that was a glitch and not intentional.

April 27, 2005 4:15 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

That Hahnwatch is a BOMB! How shameful that you would put out this complete and utter LIE. A reporter called to ask what was going on. I said Mayor Sam is run by a bunch of immature little boys who are running scared because Antonio must be on their case. Its run by Antonio people. She asked who's site is it? You can put out outright lies. Double standard I say. I remember the good old days when this site use to be fair and balanced and the posters were the ones who posted what they wanted.

April 27, 2005 4:33 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Hahn behind the recall, what a load of crap. I was there at the recall meetings, and believe me, we asked Hahn to help, didn't even get a call back. Not even from the Big O. We asked Janice to help. She was interested but never came through.

You know who did return our calls, not only to help, but committed $100K to the recall - Bob Hertzberg. Of course, he never came through, Shallman made sure of that.

Ask around, Ask Henry Lozano, ask the republican firm that was contracted to collect the signatures. From day 1, the recall was Hertzberg's idea, that's why it hasn't worked.

April 27, 2005 5:00 PM  

Blogger SacramentoNighties said:

HEY, Jim Hahn... we've never met, and I don't even know HOW to get to the "third floor" (whatever that is), but apparently you owe me some money for all my time "dedicated" to monitoring this blog.

Give me a call, I'm in the book (somewhere), and we can make arrangements -- although I'm just as happy to get the word out about the EMPTY SUIT* that is Attention-Deficit Villaraigosa, gratis.

(Do you suppose if in some parallel universe -- because it will never happen HERE -- ADV® did ACTUALLY become mayor of ANOTHER Los Angeles, then would the mayor's offices be called the EMPTY SUITE*, too?)

P.S. Mayor (Sam, that is...) I was ALSO "mysteriously blocked" from the blog for quite awhile today, and I'm not even IN L.A. this fine afternoon. (Maybe you should pay your DWP bill on time! They don't get all those "Rocky" profits from the F-H settlement for quite awhile.)

REALLY, folks, sometimes it IS just a cigar. . .

Hahn, 52: ADV®, 48 (just 20 days...)

April 27, 2005 5:04 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

You got that empty suit part right, Sac.

ADV is losing a percentage point of support a day --- bing, bang, boom.

It could never last when there's no material to work with. Millions for ads, zero for achievements.

Like the new media people always say -- CONTENT is king, (and ADV IS an empty suit).

April 27, 2005 5:08 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Hey Antonio, I just looked on the Website and see a message from Jennie your El Serno deputy or may i say former deputy. What the hell is going on? She is gone? That may be a good thing but who is replacing her.

Also, I saw you only spent $100k or so on the campign already. Does this mean you have been using your lousy staff to campaign to keep your bills low? Is this why my inquires to your office have not been addressed. What is the truth?

I support you running for Mayor and will vote for you but do not take your mostly useless staff and make them do campaign stuff because this means we cannot get the communities things done.

April 27, 2005 5:09 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

did you guys block wilshire blvd area too?

April 27, 2005 5:12 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

It was the man in the black suit, not the empty one. The man in the empty suit was biting his nails today in fear of his long time connection with Drug Dealer Vignali. Is Mr. empty suit going to Floriday soon? Not right now, he is under a different watch, today is a beautiful day.

April 27, 2005 5:16 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Gotta love the reporters today all over the media going after ADV on that Florida money. Funny how some of them didn't even know they donated to his campaign.

On another note what a bunch of sleaze bag assholes Ace Simith and Antonio's thugs to show up to a Hahn press conf. The reporters have told people they have absolutely no clue. This is how they work, threaten, harrass, coerse, intimindate. Its Antonio's way or no way

April 27, 2005 5:22 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

ADV (Mr. Empty Suit) should donate all of his campaign money to a worthwhile cause. His cause is hopeless, Mr. Vignali will get upset if you have the media bringing up his name. This time he will invite you out to dinner and shower you with demands. Was it worth it ADV to accept money from your friend Vignali & Son who is a major Los Angeles drug dealer with connections to Florida? Was it worth it to take all that money for a letter disregarding all ethics? Was it worth it to help Richard Meruelo to practically steal the school property under LAUSD's own watch. How could you go to the elem. school and look at the children and know your so corrupted you stole from them. Your so corrupted, you pushed for Vignali to get pardoned from jail sentence and keep pushing drugs in the streets that we live on. I heard you also have a problem of some sort with illegal substances, is that also your connection on Figueroa?

April 27, 2005 5:23 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

James Hahn is throwing at Villargairosa is based on facts.Without exception, all of these "politicos" are members of the corrupt Democratic Party. The "Pardons for Sale" scandal
This scandal has angered two large blocks of voters in Los Angeles. The first is the L.A. Black community. The Black community is asking why the thirty Black youths that were imprisoned along with Carlos Vignali were not released as well. In fact, Carlos Vignali was the principal culprit in the crime. He was the one that provided the money necessary for the crack cocaine operation and was one of the main leaders.

April 27, 2005 5:40 PM  

Blogger Chief Parker said:

So i have the document -- it it authentic.

Paid for by Hahn.

It was past out by known recall supporters at the Koren American debate.

April 27, 2005 5:59 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

From Eliseo
Regarding ANON 5p.m, good try, you must be that is not true!, regarding Hertzberg or even about Janice. In any event we will be out this weekend collecting signature outside "Charo's" If you have not signed the recall pitition please come by and sign, we are still gathering signatures

Eliseo

April 27, 2005 6:02 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

PARKER -- you bench-warmer for ADV. SO you HAVE a document PAID FOR BY HAHN.

SO DO I, it came in the mail. So do MOST of the voters in L.A.!

What does YOURS say -- "recall villaraigosa" -- If so, then YOU WIN. Game's over, call the ethics commission and cancel the election. Save the city millions.

BUT, if it says "Vote for Hahn" and it was simply HANDED OUT by recall supporters -- then TOUGH DARTS pansy. Stick in in your invisible file with your invisible stats on invisible neighborhood watches, you fraudulent flake!

I found a HAHN flyer in the street near my house the other day. DOES THAT MEAN STREET SERVICES IS PART OF THE CONSPIRACY?

(Damn, you dumbbb!)

April 27, 2005 6:17 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

I got a Hahn flyer in the mail -- The US POSTAL SERVICE is doing Jim Hahn's dirty work, too.

Let's INDICT Uncle Sam!

April 27, 2005 6:18 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

There were Hahn mailers stuck in my fence outside. He's obviously EMPLOYING ILLEGAL ALIEN circular delivery people.

Quick, TELL WACKO WALTER -- he'll withdraw his endorsement (just in time, whew!)

April 27, 2005 6:20 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

You got it ALL backwards, ADV-lovers.

Hahn isn't behind the ADV recall -- the ADV RECALL IS BEHIND HAHN, along with a growing number of OTHER pissed off Eastside constituents, HONEST Latino's, and disappointed faithful in his backyard.

TRUTH is being told. . .

April 27, 2005 8:43 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Elieso, Yes, Huggy loved the idea of the recall of Av. and so did some of his staffers,especially a former Pacheceo staffer.

April 27, 2005 11:58 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Elieso, Yes, Huggy loved the idea of the recall of Av. and so did some of his staffers,especially a former Pacheceo staffer.

April 27, 2005 11:58 PM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

AND THOUSANDS OF OTHER CD14 people screwed by ADV's broken promises. . .

What's your point. One of the main differences between the staffs of ADV and the ex-CM he replaced is that most of Pacheco's people actually LIVED in and cared about the district they served and many still do.

Most of ADV's important, incompetent Sacramento bozos couldn't find the Eastside on the map before July 2003. SOME STILL CAN'T!

April 28, 2005 3:14 AM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Ha, Ha. Still have to thank you for the laugh Parker. EVERY time I scroll by and see "MEAT was right..." about ANYTHING, it's a HUGE knee-slapper.

April 28, 2005 3:16 AM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Carreon as listed as the head of ADV's field staff in El Sereno at the one-year mark, was gone by th 18 month mark on district reports to constituents. In between ADV was "urged" by supporters in CD14 (Parke and Ace, who needed his money), to run for mayor.

You decide her "role" now, and why she was at a debate for him in recent weeks with his family...

April 28, 2005 3:43 AM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Au pair?

April 28, 2005 3:43 AM  

Anonymous Anonymous said:

Meat, if you say Hahn is behind the recall your dumber than you look in your Z. If Pacheco was behind it, it would of been on the ballot. Only three people know who is really behing it and nobody will ever know.

April 29, 2005 6:21 PM  

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