The Straw Man and Prop R
The Straw Man is a frequent friend of ours here on Mayor Sam. He often appears when politicos or politico wannabes get caught trying to defend the indefensible, or attempt to make themselves seem more important than they actually are. They can be easily spotted when someone says "people are saying" or words similar as they try desperately to justify their own beliefs.What is a Straw Man? For those who don't know a Straw Man presents a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refutes it, and pretends that the opponent's actual position has been refuted, presents someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refutes that person's arguments, and pretends that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated or invents a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretends that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Our Commander in Chief is a king of the Straw Man arguments with statements on Iraq like "some people say we should just cut and run..." yada yada yada. Of course no one actually ever said that but the old political trick is to say it enough times and SOMEONE will believe it.
An example of one misguided bloggers repeated introduction of the Straw Man follows:
"Hahn and Garcetti caught "flat footed" and ill equipped and ONLY 100 NC board members throughout the city were there, or even cared.
Only about 1 board member from each of the NCs, but since half or more of the NCs send no one to these meetings, that means there's not only limited interest on the part of the NCs that do send people to the alliance, but not even that much curiosity on the part of most of the other NCs.
What have I been saying children. . . there is NO ground swell, there is NO rising tide, and only a handful of unmandated NIMBY NCs are paying ANY attention to this."
This genius has been ranting on Mayor Sam for some time. First bad-mouthing Neighborhood Councils as representing less than 1 percent of Angelenos, then accusing them of "not caring" about Prop R. Then he has the nerve to turn 180 degrees and state that that "not caring" is representative of the entire city not caring about this issue. (Of course if that were true he would probably just shut up in the first place.)
On what farm does this individual reside where there is an overabundance of straw? Precisely how limber is this individual to have inserted his head so deeply up his rear end?
Here are the facts, without commentary, on the opposition to Prop R:
SUPPORTING PROP R:
LA Chamber of Commerce
LA league of Women Voters
LA City Council
OPPOSING PROP R (in alphabetical order):
Jim Alger
President Northridge West neighborhood Council/Senator/Vice Chair LANCC
Jill Banks Barad
Chair, Valley Alliance of Neighborhood Councils
Anthony Butka
Member, League of Women Voters - Los Angeles Board Member, Lincoln Heights Neighborhood Council
Humberto Camacho Board Member, Pico Union Neighborhood Council, Senator LANCC
Cindy Cleghorn
Chairperson, Sunland-Tujunga Neighborhood Council
Richard Close
President, Sherman Oaks Homeowners Association
Byron DeLear
Candidate, United States Congress
Pat Herrera Duran
Former Vice President, Board of Neighborhood Commissioners
Soledad García
Board Member, Coastal San Pedro Neighborhood Council Chair, LA DWP-Neighborhood Council MOU Oversight Committee, Senator, LANCC
Jeffrey Jacobberger
Member, Neighborhood Council Review Commission/Senator LANCC
Bennett Kayser
Former Member, Charter Reform Commission Vice President, Greater Echo Park Elysian Neighborhood Council
Heinrich Keifer
Former President, Highland Park Chamber of Commerce
Jason Lyon
Former Co-Chair, Silver Lake Neighborhood Council
Robert Lamishaw
Past President, Mid Valley Chamber of Commerce
Bill Murray
President, Los Angeles Community Policing
Edwin Ramirez
President, Pacoima Neighborhood Council
Pastor A.J. Mora
Board Member, Arroyo Seco Neighborhood Council
Greg Nelson
General Manager, Department of Neighborhood Empowerment (Retired)
Julian Rogers
Chair, Empowerment Congress Southeast Area Neighborhood Development Council
Frank Wada
Board Member, Lincoln Heights Neighborhood Council
Central San Pedro Neighborhood Council
Glassell Park Neighborhood Council
Harbor Gateway North Neighborhood Council
Harbor Gateway South Neighborhood Council
Mar Vista Community Council
Neighborhood Council of Westchester/Playa del Rey
North Hollywood North East Neighborhood Council
Northridge West Neighborhood Council
Sunland-Tujunga Neighborhood Council
Sun Valley Area Neighborhood Council
Tarzana Neighborhood Council
Valley Alliance of Neighborhood Councils
Wilmington Neighborhood Council
Winnetka Neighborhood Council
Valley VOTE
The Los Angeles Daily News
The Los Angeles Times
-------------------
Wow. 20 Community leaders (and counting), 14 Neighborhood Councils (and counting) Valley Vote, the Daily News and the LA Times...
...Sure. You're absolutely right. There is no ground swell at all.
Blog away dum dums.
Labels: proposition r
Posted by Councilman John @ 9/18/2006 02:50:00 AM
123 Comments:
That little turd is so scared he can't even see straight.
All he does is attack and attempt to marginalize citizen volunteers and their efforts.
As you pointed out he is scared out of his mind because if NC's pull off this defeat of Prop R it will be a MAJOR and I mean MAJOR victory for them and from the looks of the current poles they will defeat R and H handily.
Still not impressed, or concerned . . .
Yawn! (I can read the boring "Not Proper" Website, too). It's been up there, posted by NC people not "properly" elected by any significant number of their stakeholders, for awhile.
DOUBLE YAWN!
Name-calling doesn't change some simple facts, though. And lining up 20 (or even 30, or 40?) NC board votes that COMBINED don't come close to even representing the ACTUAL stakeholders in one average-sized NC, doesn't = any kind of groundswell. Not even close.
Do I need to do the math. Nope, this is basic, and the ACTUAL numbers would be even more embarrassing. The 20 NCs that have voted on this so far didn't collect even as many votes COMBINED in their last elections as any single citycouncilmember did (1 out of 15), in the most poorly turned out district. And, assuming the majority of the unmandate's board members even had opponents, that MIGHT mean they have 5,000 - 6,000 voters among them that supported them as NC "leaders".
And "leaders" to do what? Did they explain to their stakeholders they wanted to erect ANOTHER layer of city government to second-guess City Council (nope, most were presented as people to deal with LOCAL matters of the delivery of city services).
But, FACTS, being a bitch, as they are -- in this case. . . the "League of Women Voters" stamp alone on anything in city politics can deliver tens of thousands of votes in L.A.; ditto the C of C.
On the other unraised hand, the "I'm your NC board member who's never made any effort to outreach to you" stamp is good for (maybe?) a few hundred votes in each NC area -- a few thousand citywide, at best. (But, you sure got some "straw" in your shorts if you're counting the L.A Times tepid response as an "anti" with any teeth).
Sorry Councilman "Yawn" (not very "PC" there, CM. . . shouldn't that be CouncilPERSON "Yawn") -- but then the NC system IS just a "little" old boys' network. Sorry, if I offended your favorite place to waste 5-6 hours on a weekend. I'm sure the Alliance, which promotes itself as something of consequence in the city wasn't happy that an anonymous poster yesterday revealed that there were only about 100 people at what was pumped as their most important meeting of the year.
Two major prop issues AND a Planning Department honcho there, and that ALL they could muster? Triple-YAWN
And, once again, the hard, cold truth is, that if those 100 or so had spent that much time out in their neighborhoods the past 2-3 years, instead of kibbutzing with the other unmaddated sub-1 percenters every chance they get, I might not be able to prove their impotence at the ballot box quite so easily (from public DONE election records).
Today's lashback on the blog is pretty obvious desparation and it's understandable that pulling the "we represent our communities" card out of the bottom of the house of cards that the unmandated NC screamer loudmouths live in would produce it. The word is getting out -- including one CM mouthing the near exact stats of Alger-berger's own pitiful NC election results and loss of traction ("hundreds Year 1, down to 50 or so, Year 2") -- while questioning BONC commissioners on the horseshoe this past week.
Geez, and I NEVER even copied the CM on my posts. I don't know if City Council staffers DO blog here, but it's a safe bet they know how to download the independent election administrators' reports.
Better shut me up QUICK with some facts about how NC's ARE known in their communities and DO speak for the constiutents, DOUBLE QUICK. (Hmmm, but that's not even addressed in this message about "straw man" tactics. Projection? Meethinks so.)
But changing that unconvenient fact would require leaving the boardroom and hitting the streets, starting (OH, maybe 2003), and actually TALKING to the masses about what they want their NCs to do.
And, THAT might get in the way of "speaking for them" and take times out of "fighting" city council "for them" (did they actually ASK you to???) -- and the little army-less generals that scream the loudest about city council snubbing them CAN'T have that.
-- Signed, "the genius" (aka "the little turd")
P.S. The "straw man" isn't the main character in this little play -- it's the "cowardly lions," the unmandated, sub-1 percenters hiding behind titles as NC "leaders" when the real issue for at least teh first tier of them is "open that CM seat up, so I can run for it".
P.S.S. Speaking of "straw man". . . the "they're just doing it to get pensions" line is a beaut, too. Buts that's another post.
3:25 a.m.
Why would anyone in L.A. care what the "poles" say about this.
Can Polish citizens vote in L.A.?
Better slip that news to Zuma Dogg, his "fee waivers" rants ain't getting no where, and he's sure to want to jump on the ballot-boxes-being stuffed-by-Warsaw-residents issue and sound the alarm -- very next council session, tune in. Maybe he can work that issue into public comment about an agenda item on someones lighting district.
Not very convincing, John. But at least someone besides the Dogg is posting here again.
The fact that this has been any issue for months now and still less than one0-quarter of NCs have voted to oppose it suggests that City Council may have had a point in acting when it had the chance to get this reform issue on the ballot. How many months - even a year or more - would it have taken them to get a majority of the neighborhood councils to weigh in on something like this with any kind of substantive response or feedback?
The Mayor's budget group of NC people, which you would think would be a huge issue, can't even draw a dozen NCs out of 88. Laura Chick's meeting with NCs to talk about auditing DONE and BONC supposedly didn't even attract a third of the councils.
Maybe most of the NC leaders are indeed focused on local issues, not citywide. Is the city supposed to wait until the majority get interested, or hold up and try to force them to the table. Even worse would be to take the word of the same dozen or so that always chime in on citywide issues as being representative of what all NCs want.
NC's have become a platform for "improve nothing" loadmouths. Attack, attack, attack is all they seem to do. So far I am not impressed. Let's change the charter and dump this failed experiment.
I really did not need their help to decide where I stand on term limits and doubt the rest of the voters did either.
If Neighborhood Councils cared they would do more outreach! However, leaders like Alger are more concerned with defining wedge issues for their next campaign.
Councilman Yawn has insomnia, maybe losing sleep worrying about the egg the NCs will get on their face when Prop R passes.
It will be important for the majority of NCs not taking stands on this issue to point that out to their stakeholders, that they were minding the store at home in the NC area and not trying to dicate city policy with the minority of councils that are opposing, in order to show they value the original intent of charter reform.
The biggest part of this list is still the breakaway Valley councils, just as someone said before.
No surpise.
A MAJOR and I mean MAJOR victory for neighborhood councils would be for them to average 3-4 percent turnouts in their next elections, except Alger and Jacobberges' councils, where a MAJOR victory might be to get back to 1 percent. Lyon's could claim victory to turn out 2 percent.
But, don't hold your breath. . .
Councilman John you sure hit a nerve. You can tell the clowncil staffers are irritated by your post and the same guy has posted about 5 negative comments.
First of all the 100 or so NC's REPS that showed up to the Alliance on Saturday represented the city. They were from all over. The Alliance meeting isn't for every NC you moron. So that was a very successful showing. Secondly, the so called poll League of Women Voters took came back that if "lengthening term limits" was on the ballot alone IT WOULD FAIL. Lastly, NC's are gaining major momemtum from the community now. Most NC reps belong to more then one organization and the word is spreading like wild fire throughout the city. People who never went to NC meetings are now going and I haven't heard people in LA talk politics like this since the Bradley era. So clowncil staffer accept it, stop being in denial, stop attacking NC's, they are on the move.
Great Commentary in today's LA Times by Jason and Jeff.
latimes.com Opinion Section
Noise in the 'Hood
Neighborhood councils are forcing City Hall to finally pay attention to the 'little guy.'
By Jason Lyon and Jeff Jacobberger
September 18, 2006
LOS ANGELES' system of grass-roots neighborhood empowerment, long ignored by the media and too often undiscovered by the public, has flexed new muscle this summer as an important brake on government power.......etc. etc.
7:23
No facts, no figures, no reality there.
Not worth responding to.
Too bad the authors of the Times piece can't seem to practice this at home.
Haven't been here in a while. Sounds like the 4th floor folks are a little worried about the NCs.
And its laughable for the Council to criticize participation levels at the NC level given that the NCs have only been around a few years. The Council show not throw rocks at their glass house.
Yes, CM John hit nerve - in his own foot, when he shot himself there with this posting.
There seems to be some basic misunderstanding of the numbers game that is politics, here.
20 NC's that can barely involve 1-2 percent of their constituency in the issues that matter to them the most -- local matters -- makes the picture even more dismal than the 6:03 a.m. poster paints it.
In this case, 20 x 1 or 2 percent does not equal DOESN'T equal 20-plus percent, sorry.
Maybe you missed that math class at LAUSD (of maybe you got an "A")?
But this means than less than one-quarter of NC boards have voted to oppose, most of those represent/speak for less than 2 percent of their stakeholders.
The actual voice that these numbers represent can't even rise to amount to 1 percent of the city's population.
And, the election is less than 2 months away.
9:55
Never been to the 4th floor, and thanks for making the argument for me.
"given that the NCs have only been around for a few years. . ."
Your words, but let me arrive at the logical conclusion that you avoided:
. . . they have no clout to affect a citywide election.
Period.
Thanks for the assist. Kobe couldn't have lobbed it up for a slam dunk better.
PARANOIA is what I'm getting with these negative posts. Some NC's are going through the election process so they can't take a stand on the issue. This is exactly the type of issue for the people that NC's needed to get the ball rolling and people wanting to get involved. Stick those numbers up your butt because no matter what you supporters or should I say clowncil staffers are worried you may need to look for a new job. It kills you that the NC's are getting support citywide, newspapers, media, blogs etc. I have read a lot of info on other blogs supporting the NO ON PROP R position. When Clowncil members make negative remarks about VOLUNTEERS IN A COMMUNITY that makes them look like assholes.
The Times op ed made the point that you know NC's are becoming effective when City Hall starts fighting back. The reaction from the Straw Man and his/her friends on the 4th floor are proof of that. Imagine the amount of time that he spends trying to deny that NC's are becoming a powerful political force. If that weren't true, he'd be doing something else with his time, such as finding a law for the City Council to propose.
Does anyone know who the political consultants are for either side of the R campaign? I can guess that Rick Taylor, Parke, etc will do the Yes on R stuff, but who is doing the No on R side?
Gee neighborhood councils have no power that's why the MAYOR needed them for his budget day.
Daily News-Honeymoon is over
THE next city budget isn't due for nearly a year, but Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa can already see a political struggle ahead. That, no doubt, is why he recently pleaded with neighborhood council leaders to help him cut costs in city government. He's going to need all the help he can get.
10:32
I don't have to imagine how many ways the loudmouth unmandated NC screamers try to avoid the central issues -- the NUMBERS!
The numbers are NOT with the NCs, and it's because they haven't tried, until now (too late) to amass them.
Here are the logical, unemotional options to the hard number facts you'd like to avoid facing.
Prove that the numbers quoted showing most NCs at 1-2 percent penetration are wrong or mis-representative. All that's been posted so far are excuses as to why they ARE that way, or reasons why the "buck" for no outreach doesn't stop at the NC boards themselves.
Show where most, or even many NCs are focusing on outreach now (when most had worst second elections than first), and how that will affect the outcome and their credibility. (You can't, but I'm trying to help you a bit here).
I haven't heard ANY councilmembers or staffer make "negative" comments about NCs - other than to question whether they're representative of the NC stakeholders. That's not rocket science - they're not. Even the USC Neihghborhood Participation studies show that -- most NCs are still run by the same good-old-boy, elitist, homeowners networks, who still crow that "we're the only ones who show up to do the work..." (and they like it that way, and THAT's why they don't INVITE anyone else to the party).
I ain't council, I ain't staff. f it makes you feel good to blame them, enjoy persecution complex, but not if it's based on MY postings -- that's just the paranoia is on the other foot.
I am a duly elected board member of a neighborhood council in the city of L.A. Never taken a dime in salary - or anything else - from the city (if fact they owe me some NC expense money, as I speak!)
I only make comments about facts, figures, and how they reveal who the real pretenders are, playing that they "represent" people they've never done outreach to.
How many were represented for the Mayor's budget day?
Tell the truth!
Not many.
Interesting choice of images. . . doesn't anyone remember the story of the Wizard of Oz.
The "straw man" scarecrow ends up being the one who had the "brains" after all.
Boo Hoo (BAD choice of symbolism AND bad choice of "champions" the save the city. . . unmandated sub-1 percenters with big mouths).
Should have researched that better, Councilman Yawn. But then, "research" isn't exactly the in vocabulary of the people who post the threads here.
Nice Councilman John. Straw Man is so nervous he's been posting rants disguised as "yawns" since 6 AM. If this blog is so irrelevant, why is he even here? Which raises the other question "Why are we paying your salary Straw Mouth? Stop blogging on the taxpayers' dime."
SPEAKING of persecution complexes. Holy crap. Did the Times NC 1-percent-turnout duo today actually try to suggest that by someone on City Council suggesting that NCs might be subject to influence from lobbyists etc. that they were "slinging mud."
"You know you've got a powerful movement going when politicians start slinging mud at community volunteers."
Did they REALLY try and pass that off as logic?? And just how god-awful thin skinned are these unmandated "leaders"??
These are the same people PUSHING term limits because (we all know), that after just EIGHT YEARS (not a day more), all councilmembers become corrupt and have to be thrown out to SAVE themselves from their base nature, that surfaces EXACTLY 2,922 days after they're first sworn in?
PUH-lease. Every NC in my sector of the city has sweetheart deals on the agenda -- for boardmembers, groups they used to be members of, companies they have friends or family members at -- all kinds of garbage that would NEVER stand the test at the City Council level. Thousands of city dollars going to "you-scratch-my-back" shell games every year.
PUL-lease. If the mud fits, wear it, but don't pretend that just because people "volunteer" they're not in it for their own interests.
6:03 am aka Mitch - don't you have kids? Don't you have anything better to do at 6:03 am?
Which Councilmember was slinging mud at Neighborhood Councils?
Isn't it usually the other way around? NCs sling mud at their elected reps-- doesn't that account for about 75% of what they talk about at their meetings?
You're right 11:26 -- this is a waste time. The loudmouth sub-1-percenters are just too damn dumb to save, and no one else is posting here, or paying much attention.
I've got "PRIVATE SECTOR" work to do (no one posts at 6 a.m., when they work for CITY, yahoo).
Maybe I'll come back when someone posts something other than "boy you sure are nervous" taunts. . . . and actually have something more than hollow empty-mandate NC board votes to prove that Prop R is in ANY kind of danger.
Cheerleaders I can find at the local high school (and better intellects, too).
Still looking for those "pollack" numbers, though, that the 3:25 a.m. poster referenced.
Who's Mitch?
Councilmember John you forgot the most important community leader andorsement against Prop R.
Zuma Dogg
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha
The Troll Just Blabbered:
"The "straw man" scarecrow ends up being the one who had the "brains" after all."
City Hall pays you to diffuse the groundswell this way? Or are you a free agent? Isn't there some dog and quack thing that needs your attention? You posted that "poor elephant" thing this morning. You're the only animal nut on the blog. Go do something about that. Or check to see how the mayor can improve airport security. We may be stupid but five posts an hour are enough. We get it. You're yawning.
Why doesn't someone with a better understanding of how the neighborhood councils work just refute the "trolls" ascertions, and number-crunching rather than name calling.
Can't that be done?
81 percent at mine, 11:41. The complaining never stops, which is why I don't attend their meetings anymore. I can still get stuff done by calling the council offices and 311, instead.
If the NCs don't matter and are so puny as to warrant any attention...
Why do you spend so much time, writing long screeds against them?
Obviously, they have hit a nerve with you.
Or maybe you aren't getting any.
Hertzberg's consultant John Shallman is doing the yes on R campaign.
Maybe the "Troll" was doing the NC leaders a favor, one that they don't seem to appreciate, namely a sneak peak at just the kind of credibility challenges they will face as the major proponents of killing this measure.
You can call names, or question the origins of the challenges, but in the end, in order to be effective at the ballot box, you still have to answer the challenges wherever they come from, and defend against them with something of subtance. Claiming abuse and mudslinging won't save the day in November, but it may provide an excuse for losing afterwards.
I've never heard of half these community leaders listed. Someone's scraping the bottom of the barrel to prove viability.
Genius: Hmmm...you must be from Cypress Park NC or from Arroyo Seco NC. I'm thinking Arroyo Seco NC as either Bill Rumble or Jim Thompson? Or are you Rob Schraff who is from a little house high on a hill? Or maybe you are from the Lincoln Heights Chamber of Commerce? Yes, that must be it.
12:47 PM, while spitting up straw, said;
"Claiming abuse and mudslinging won't save the day in November, but it may provide an excuse for losing afterwards."
Great argument. You work for City Hall. You can be the lucky guy who explains that to them when they loose.
Nice distraction 12:54 PM. But every body knows who you are. You might as well start slapping your photos on your posts.
Do tell, 12:57. The world awaits.
Did someone actually say that NCs couldn't take a stand on Prop R because they're having elections?
There's no specific election season for NCs, they go year round, there's a half dozen going on every month.
Talk about straw and excuses.
You work for the city 1:12. Don't they tell you anything anymore? Are you being kept so far out of the loop from trolling here day and night that the only information you get is on Mayor Sam, on this "irrelevant" blog from all these "fools."
So this is the main "anti" Prop R tactic now, 12:54?
If they won't agendize a vote against Prop R, you'll screw them to the wall and try and "out" the leaders of those NCs that haven't joined you.
NICE, real nice. You'll be eating your children next.
Do it the night before a big test at school, save them some grief.
Do tell, 12:57. The world awaits.
If they eat their children, NC election turnouts will be cut in half -- again.
You work for the city 1:19. Don't they tell you anything anymore? Are you being kept so far out of the loop from trolling here day and night that the only information you get is on Mayor Sam, on this "irrelevant" blog from all these "fools."
That little turd is so scared he's reposting his question to find out who he is. Looks like someone is spinning out of control in the city spin cycle, having been outed for all his hollow threats and lies. Talk about a banana republic without the bananas. Aren't you supposed to be working, doing the people's business?
Do tell, 12:57. The world awaits.
IDENTIFY by name, or shut up.
Everybody refresh the screen or go back to the top. Zuma Dogg is posting again.
Now we can all talk real politics, not this mumbo jumbo!
It's "Mr. 'Dee Dee Dee' Goes to Town!"
Who's been "outed"?
Where, when?
Was that post erased?
I just HAVE to know!
You're good at background checks. You even got Zuma's voting record. You tell.
Duck Dogg. Troll is in the house.
People don't come here for info any more 1:27, just giggles.
They did once, but no more. They went from having insiders, to outside, to out-of-their minders, like the Dogg creature. It should be renamed Mayor Sam-itarium's.
1:36
Understood, you don't know, don't have a clue, and just HOPE it's someone from city (because if an actual NC person it this pissed off, it's just the first chink in the armor that never was).
TO 1:37 PM AKA Straw Man
Now, what did Councilman John tell you this morning? He called you out. Go back to the mayor and see if you can get the bus to run on time or something. Make yourself useful. We heard ya, Mayor Sam is worthless. Now go away.
1:42
Understood, you don't know, don't have a clue, and just HOPE it's someone from city (because if an actual NC person it this pissed off, it's just the first chink in the armor that never was).
I was at the Saturday Alliance meting and someone told me some of these Neighborhood Council members are fighting the term limits becuase they are planning to run for office and they want to run in 2 years, not 6. Is this true??? If so I think it should be discussed candidly.
What part of "Councilman John called you out this morning" do you not understand Straw Man. Now go on back to AV and see if you can get the bus to run on time or something. We heard ya. Mayor Sam is worthless. And no one knows who you are Troll. OK, you win. Now go away.
WHICH NC MEMBERS ARE PLANNING TO RUN FOR OFFICE. LET'S GET THE NAMES OUT IN THE OPEN SO WE CAN EVALUATE PEOPLE'S REAL REASONS FOR OPPOSING TERM LIMITS. IF YOU KNOW OF SOMEONE PLEASE NAME THEM HERE.
Don't you mean "Straw Lady."? They alternate.
If Mayor Sam and the NCs are irrelevant, worthless...
why are you spending so much time telling us so?
I like the idiots posting negatives about NC's and stating nobody reads this blog yet they keep posting and posting and posting. Obviously they know a lot of people read this blog and who do you think the voters will listen to, politicans or community volunteers who will point out how corrupt, deceiving and sneaky the clowncil was on putting Prop R on the ballot? Sadly, there were people who supported term limits but the process and rushing to put it on ballot without input is what's going to doom them. Isn't John Shallman the campaign for Flora vs Rosendahl that sent out the mailers 2 weeks too late? Yup he was.
Assuming An Alter Identity, 2:08 PM posted:
"Sadly, there were people who supported term limits but the process and rushing to put it on ballot without input is what's going to doom them."
Nothing is dooming them, dude. Not even you.
Then Posted:
"Isn't John Shallman the campaign for Flora vs Rosendahl that sent out the mailers 2 weeks too late? Yup he was."
Such an interesting choice for comparison.
There likely won't be a campaign consultant for No on R because there isn't much money available for good government.
We, however, have a measure that helps the City Councilmembers and their staff financially and power-wise, and it provides advantages for the lobbyists and those of us who hire them. Money is not going to be a problem for us. Deal with it!
I can't name one person that resides in the City that supports Measure R. Not a one. And most of the people on my street vote(Valley Glen).
I can't think of one good reason to vote yes on measure R.
Who the heck are these people that support this measure?
I can't name one person that resides in the City that supports Measure R. Not a one. And most of the people on my street vote(Valley Glen).
I can't think of one good reason to vote yes on measure R.
Who the heck are these people that support this measure?
I can't name one person that resides in the City that supports Measure R. Not a one. And most of the people on my street vote(Valley Glen).
I can't think of one good reason to vote yes on measure R.
Who the heck are these people that support this measure?
So, your definition of "good government" is not spending the NCs $50K in the communities, holding meetings and making decisions that suggest they speak for 40,ooo people (when only 200 voted for you), and devoting more attention to citywide issue than local ones (when "local" is what the charter is all about).
What part of the definition of "neighborhood" escapes you Sherlock? The whole CITY is their neighborhood??? (MS13 thinks the same way).
That's good government?
In what Gulag, Ivan?
Dear Fat Cat:
welcome to the wonderful world of politics. if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. or at least put down the keyboard and go do your outreach.
you will not change the system by sitting around whining on Mayor Sam.
3:00 p.m.
Gee, that sounds just like. . .
"I don't know HOW Nixon won, I don't know ANYONE who voted for him"
-- attributed to New Yorker magazine film critic Pauline Kael, 1972.
Classic example used to define and identify elitists who are forever out of touch with reality and the majority.
LOL 3:03 PM who says
"you will not change the system by sitting around whining on Mayor Sam."
Nor can you defend the system by 'sitting around whining on Mayor Sam'. Are you paid by the city to do this? Were they originally impressed by your self-professed 'genius'? Because IMO you're not very good at this. Your arguments are too peppered with abuse and illogical premises. Go back to the homepage and reread John's post.
So the NCs pretend they speak for 40,000 people, when only 200 voted for them? Antonio does the same thing. He claims to speak for 3,000,000 people, when only 250,000 voted for him.
For a group (the NCs) that's meaningless you sure spend a LOT of time on a blog that no one reads (MS) talking about both. Maybe you need some of Don's meds.
Again? Your opponents need Prozac, your opponents take meds. Time to face the truth. Your opponents are people who don't agree with you and can't be bullied by you, especially not here. You just didn't read one word Councilman John wrote this morning. Argue the issues and stop abusing people. It hasn't worked, it won't work and all you are getting is called out for stupid parlor tricks.
Spitting straw, September 18, 2006 4:21 PM blogged,
"For a group (the NCs) that's meaningless you sure spend a LOT of time on a blog that no one reads"
As opposed to you. Because you've been doing what all day?
12:54 must have hit the nail on the head. And I had money on someone from the Westside being the negative poster. Darn!
You poor thing.
4:33 PM
Now that you have it settled in your mind, it's back to the potholes.
Who would you vote for, the politicans who newspapers throughout LA have slammed for being dishonest with the people...SUPREME CYNICISM:
WILL L.A. CITY COUNCIL GET AWAY WITH ITS SHAMELESS ATTACK ON HONESTY? NOT MEASURING UP---PROP R Politicans who IGNORED the city attorney after he gave a legal opinion stating Prop R had constitutional issues, misleading, wording etc., for Politicans who want an extended term so they can get lifetime health benefits when there's residents in LA who can't afford health care anymore, Politicans who got this ballot measure at the city clerk's office on a Friday and had it on council agenda that following Tuesday for a vote for Rocky to design language WITHOUT ANY PUBLIC INPUT??
OR OR OR OR OR OR OR OR OR OR OR
Community Volunteers who care about their neighborhoods, give up hundreds of hours of their free time to make a difference in their communities, have made big strides in some areas of LA with money they spent on issues to help their neighborhoods and feel the process was unfair?????
I VOTE FOR THE COMMUNITY PEOPLE WHO WILL KICK BUTT COME NOVEMBER.
3:27
Your off by a factor of 10-fold (that's a lot, look close, I'm holding up all 10 fingers!)
Plus, there are 4 million people in L.A. (not 3), and the percentage of people eligible to vote for NCs (don't have to be a citizen, don't have to be 18 in many NCs, don't even have to LIVE in L.A.) is much higher than those eligible to for for the mayor... twice as high in some NCs.
SO, you actually off by a lot more.
"You just didn't read one word Councilman John wrote this morning."
I read every work, twice, and one of the first posts this a.m. put it all in persepctive.
The groups "opposing" have no mandate. The represent less than 1 percent of any given NC are, on average.
That means they don't represent, or even speak to 99 percent.
That's about as straightforward as it needs to be. Except for the smoke and mirror they're just starting to play for local media, the local softball league's endorsement in many of these same neighborhoods could bring more REAL votes to the plate.
AGAIN, again, again.... check your anger at the door, and repeat after me "20 NCs that can BARELY get 1 percent involved does NOT equal 20 percent of those areas."
The number is STILL one percent -- and that's 1 percent in less than one-quarter of the city's NCs.
That's only "groundswell"if you believe that 99+ percent of the people in the city will forget to vote. If you can double, triple, OCTUPLE that in the next 6-7 weeks, the votes the NCs can deliver against Prop R might (BIG might), hit double digit percentages (that 10 or more LAUSD grads)
And if they could do THAT, why haven't they done it in their OWN local elections for the past three years???
You're saying that MAV claims to speak for 4 million people when only 250,000 voted for him? Thanks for the info dude.
(it's unbelievable, isn't it? the longer Troll stays on it the worse they look. but Troll doesn't quit. it's like a disease. who needs the meds?)
5:08
Where were you when they were letting their dogs and horses and underaged children elect them to these boards... they could have used you then.
But, hey, THAT'S TWO!!!
Straw Man Blabbered:
"The groups "opposing" have no mandate. The represent less than 1 percent of any given NC are, on average."
Councilman John already warned us you'd say that. Getting a little rattled?
5:19
Let me simplify it for you.
Antonio V., in an election that turned a lot of people off, and was called a "victory for apathy" got 15-25 times as many votes in every NC area as the loudmouth NC screamers did.
The guy who lost (Hahn) got 10-20 times as many votes in every NC are as the NC loudmouth screamers did.
The council members they're bashing get 12-15 times as many votes (etc. etc.)
Who "speaks" for these communities??
GET real.
Funny, I don't know a single person for blocks around me that voted for anyone in the Neighborhood Council in my area. Some of them can't even name it.
Congratulations, Mayor Sam.
It took almost a year, but you found another CD14-blogging squad style issue to heat up the posts.
5:25 PM
As long as you're here anyway, do you think you can do something about getting the Metro to run on time? You act very politically connected.
This part of the original post:
"This genius has been ranting on Mayor Sam for some time. First bad-mouthing Neighborhood Councils as representing less than 1 percent of Angelenos, then accusing them of "not caring" about Prop R. Then he has the nerve to turn 180 degrees and state that that "not caring" is representative of the entire city not caring about this issue. (Of course if that were true he would probably just shut up in the first place.)"
Defies any logical interpretation.
Can someone explain how saying that one small group "doesn't care" about something, and that another larger group also doesn't care, means that the smaller group represents the larger group.
CM Johns argument makes no sense.
People can lack interest because it's not a priority issue to them, they can also lack interest because no one ever told them about it, and they can also appear to lack interest (to those passionate about one side of the other), because they've already made up their minds, and don't care to be confused.
It doesn't mean there's any connection or crossover.
Totally bogus reasoning. Garcetti better hope this "councilman" writes the campaign rebuttals.
After looking over all the "troll" posts, one thing is certain. If this is a city employee with a boss who is pumping Prop R, he better not get caught blogging here.
He's exposed to the anti-R people all their weaknesses and chinks, and laid their credibility bare in several areas they don't seem to want to face other than with insults. A good little city staffer would just let them get blindsided. The chances are this is a neighborhood council person who has been bullied into keeping quiet on his own board, but sees the train wreck coming for his colleagues.
Achilles never wanted to know what a heel he was, either.
Or he's a campaign strategist want-to-be. Mayeb shoudl give the Shallman guy a call.
Wasn't someone supposed to be cleaning the toilets by now?
5:42 PM Posted:
After looking over all the "troll" posts, one thing is certain. If this is a city employee with a boss who is pumping Prop R, he better not get caught blogging here.
He's exposed to the anti-R people all their weaknesses and chinks, and laid their credibility bare in several areas they don't seem to want to face other than with insults. A good little city staffer would just let them get blindsided. The chances are this is a neighborhood council person who has been bullied into keeping quiet on his own board, but sees the train wreck coming for his colleagues.
OK. Now will you do something about the Metro schedule? And you're also right about the city hall staffer blogging here. We don't pay taxes for you to do that buddy. Tell MAV to show up at a town hall meeting. But he won't, will he? Unless you pad the audience with shills. He lasted how long with LAUSD before he got up and ran away?
5:42 PM Posted:
After looking over all the "troll" posts, one thing is certain. If this is a city employee with a boss who is pumping Prop R, he better not get caught blogging here.
He's exposed to the anti-R people all their weaknesses and chinks, and laid their credibility bare in several areas they don't seem to want to face other than with insults. A good little city staffer would just let them get blindsided. The chances are this is a neighborhood council person who has been bullied into keeping quiet on his own board, but sees the train wreck coming for his colleagues."
OK. Now will you do something about the Metro schedule? And you're also right about the city hall staffer blogging here. We don't pay taxes for you to do that buddy. Tell MAV to show up at a town hall meeting. But he won't, will he? Unless you pad the audience with shills. He lasted how long with LAUSD before he got up and ran away?
Good you can at least see the "train wreck" 5:42. Now go make 'em run on time.
Don't clean toilets - not even at home, don't know squat about metro, never met the mayor.
Mussolini made the trains run on time, though. Maybe he's the "troll"?
(Someone has a "choo choo" fixation, and that's not healthy unless you're 9).
I think the Metro references are supposed to be some ill-informed anon's attempt at guessing who would DARE to post anything negative about the good-little-biy network of screaming NC wannabe CMs who are pissed the positions they want to run for won't be open for another 4-5 years.
Because, when you're a "wonk" everyone works for government and feeds off the public udder. They assume no one else knows enough to rebut or kick back.
What a miserable sheltered existence it must be with no "real world" connections.
Flowers at LAX would be nice. Pas it along, you "real world" connected wonk.
How about making the city water taste better?
Any other requests.
Traffic lights syncronized? Fix your parking tickets?
HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Taunts are still the best rebuttal anyone can come up with?
Oh, and "John said you'd say that!"
(Because he'd read it 16 times already -- oh, AND it's true. . . even the dead CM knows that). Big prognostication ("He'll repeat the truth, but DON'T believe him. . . WALK INTO THE NC LIGHT")
The REAL CM John knew how to get a mandate to make things work.
His name shouldn't brush the lips of the pissers and moaning screaming because their sub-1-percent opinions weren't vetted for 6 months before actions was taken.
Don't blame "councilman John" troll. He didn't expect his masterpiece of a rebuttal to fall after the first couple posts.
You're supposed to believe that if three more unrepresentative mini-councils join the first dozen unrepresentative minis from last month, that the sheer volume having that much undermandated power collected on one cause will blow away all criticism.
Thank you for clearing that up for us. And being so nice about it too. How about more bus stops? And traffic lights on the PCH?
7:18 PM
Thank you for clearing that up for us, Troll. And for being so nice about it too. How about more bus stops? And traffic lights on the PCH?
To Straw Man at 7:12 PM
Now it's the 'Real CM John" troll? You knew him too? Earlier you became the expert on the "real world." Ya know you were OUTED this morning. Meaning your talents as a troll must have stopped impressing Antonio at about 9 am. What part of use your "connections" to get the trains working better don't you understand?
Okay, so I finally figured out what the taunting posters meant.
The "outing" by the fake councilmember John is here:
"Our Commander in Chief is a king of the Straw Man arguments. . ."
The "troll" is George W. Bush.
Sorry I didn't catch it earlier, it was plain to see after all (what he has to do with trains, I'll never know).
Sorry Troll posting again at 7:42 PM. That is NOT what CM John was saying. No one was distracted by that, either. Work on getting more bus stop benches.
Here is a typical example of what the City Hall Troll does, a definition of Straw Man arguments from Wikipedia.
Person A: I don't think children should run into the busy streets.
Person B: I think that it would be foolish to lock up children all day with no fresh air.
Jeez. You don't ever give it a rest, do you spook?
7:42 PM
YOU'RE OUT!
7:48
I's be getting right on that massa. . . sir (right after I tally the latest election results for the 14 NCs that have voted to oppose Prop R). Yeeeouch.
Didn't want to do it.
KNEW it would be embarrasing for them (but didn't have ANY idea how bad...) jeepers, Mr. Wilson, only ONE of the 14 even BROKE 1 percent in election participation last time around.
And I had to go out and buy a BRAND new slide rule with extra digits (NO taxpayer money), to figure out Wilmington... there were so many ZEROS to the right of the decimal.
I've been generous calling these "sub-1 percenters" -- we've even got one SUB-1/10th of 1 percenter (that's less than 1 participant for every THOUSAND residents in the NC area), just in case you missed that.
BUT, I'm saving that for the next NC-related thread (this one's a bust).
(Does this REALLY sound like someone who's been outed?)
Whoo, Whoo (clear the tracks, train fanatics!)
Make that "Straw-ng Man", moron.
(Does this REALLY sound like someone who's been outed?)
Actually it sounds a bit like Zuma Dogg on one of his more lucid rants. Could he be playing both sides of the fence?
Okay, you got the last word.
oops, sorry, guess not.
What the heck was Greg Nelson doing those three years or so, while these advisory councils were turning in election results of less than 1 percent year after year? What kind of a department head draws his six-figure salary and take a pension with this kind of performance, and getting worse, and expects to be treated like some kind of conquering heroe who made the system work.
Sounds to me like more the the crappy LAUSD-style "raise self esteem forget about academic performance" bullshit gone amock.
The little councils have been complaining that the mayor's people have been taking over DONE, just like with the schools, maybe this is his justification.
If some of these NCs were public schools, they would have been shut down already. Wilmington mentioned was one of the first certified. They must have had 4 or five elections already, and it sounds like each one got worse.
Ok never mind the trains. Fix LAX. This is also the transportation wish list blog, considering the level of the City Hall trolls who keep showing up. Or didn't you think anyone would notice? Though it's interesting to see you haven't lost your nerve. You never do, do you? It's extremely unlikely Zuma Dogg is playing both sides J. But that was your most enjoyable Straw Man argument yet.
Handi Wipes at the bus stations. That would really rock my world!
How lame can the supporters of Prop R be? Ok I meant to say the ONE that keeps attacking NC's on here. Is everyone noticing that the Prop R supporters don't have a SINGLE ARGUMENT on the issue? All they've been doing is attacking COMMUNITY VOLUNTEERS just like their bosses the clowncil members. Not one argument for term limit extensions has been posted by these clowncil staffers. They have nothing of substance to state on why people should support Prop R cause it is a piece of trash. For over a week all they do is personally attack either good NC reps or the whole system. That tells me the NC's are right on track and Prop R will fail.
9:26 PM
Correct and thank you for pointing that out ONCE AGAIN today. All they have is attacks. It's sickening. And if this is coming from the City Hall staffer, as alleged, it is disgusting that this is where our money is going. He should just name himself and defend the postion WITH HIS NAME ON IT and the full weight of the mayor behind it, instead of hiding behind threats and lies on a blog. But he won't. Instead he will say the rest of us who support the NCs should name ourselves. Sure enough. The public pays taxes to hear from us.
I agree with 9:26 and 9:34.
And I still don't know of a single city resident in favor of measure R. Why are all sorts of non city resident, Los Angeles city employees in favor of it, particularly council employees? How is it any of their interest? Aren't they supposed to be serving the citizens, not themselves?
Bwahahahhahahhaha! Sorry, could not help myself.
I don't know about the other NC's I am a Homeowner in Boyle Hieghts and they would'nt be able to pay me to become involved with the crooks running the NC's in my community. Not when they spent 20 thousand dollars on 2 speakers and a soundboard for their meetings. One of thier own gave that information. Is that a real reciept?
No it is not. Get your eyes checked. Those operations for nearsightedness have come into question in the last four years.
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