Point-Counterpoint: The Sunland Tujunga Forum
It was shades of “Point, Counterpoint” from SNL, one of the classic comedy routines from the golden age of the show with Jane Curtain and Dan Aykroyd trading barbs over politics.
The routine itself was a spoof of a popular 60 Minutes segment pitting opposing, unyielding pundits against each other in a debate format.
My complements to the organizers of the Sunland/Tujunga forum for allowing a lively, unfettered format. It forced the candidates out from their protective bubbles and compelled them to bare their teeth and growl.
Both Paul Krekorian and Chris Essel exhibited passion that has been largely lacking in this campaign.
This forum changed all the rules. Up until now, salvos were exchanged via mailers; now the contest was up close and personal.
It was refreshing to see them as complete flesh and blood individuals.
Christina Gonzalez of Fox 11 News was all business and kept the candidates on track.
This article is a summary of the forum. Where I felt comfortable in using a direct quote, I did. Otherwise, the narrative is a compilation of my notes.
I recommend viewing the video when it becomes available.
Also, my own analysis and comments will be presented in a separate post sometime tomorrow.
The first half of the debate consisted of questions directed at both candidates. While no significant differences emerged, the tone gradually became more adversarial.
The initial set of questions concerned neighborhood character. Would they hit the ground running to protect communities from inappropriate development after taking office?
Both Paul and Chris stressed the need for stakeholders to be their eyes and ears.
Krekorian added that most (commercial) land owners “don’t give a darn” about communities and are “driven by downtown pro business interests.” Essel pledged to have every developer work with the District Council Office and the NCs before plans were formally developed.
What would each of them do when faced with competing legitimate uses for the same property? The example presented by Ms. Gonzales was replacing a coffee house with a car dealership.
Krekorian stated that there has been a chronic failure between the Planning Department and Building and Safety. This can lead to lawsuits as projects may be approved before the public is consulted, then delayed when citizens learn of the ramifications and file a protest. An administrative system needs to be in place for the departments to communicate and share information. Only an activist City Council office can assure that happens.
Essel blamed bureaucrats making decisions from their desks and never visiting sites. Her Council staff would serve as “vigilantes.”
Both were in favor of changing the City Charter so planning commission members are elected rather than appointed. Krekorian added that NCs are an important part of the planning process but City Hall appears to want to disempower them by requiring financial disclosure. They need more power, not less.
The subject turned to a postmortem of the Station Fire.
Chris said a summit meeting with the objective of producing an action plan was needed.
“We have a budget problem,” she said. Emergency services do not have the money to respond timely. She would work on budget issues.
Krekorian emphasized that the initial responders were civilians from the community, not city personnel.
A lack of planning was exposed by the fire. Fires are annual events. We need to accept that as a fact and plan accordingly –clearing brush and catch basins, etc.
Next up was the subject of water rates.
Sunland Tujunga is unique among communities in Los Angeles because of its rural character and equestrian activities. Large animals need plentiful water. Not enough consideration has been given to this by the DWP.
Essel affirmed her support for a Rate Payer Advocate and for special rates to accommodate owners with horses. We also need to utilize reclaimed water.
Krekorian also stated support for the RPA but the position must be independent of DWP’s management. He was also in favor of special rates for equestrian properties. The transfer of DWP’s surplus to the city’s General Fund was also wrong. Without differential treatment between agricultural and residential properties, the unique nature of Sunland/Tujunga would be lost.
Both candidates agreed that it was dangerous for bikers and equestrians to share the same trails. Separate trails for each activity seemed to be the common message.
If money is the root of all evil, it became apparent in this next segment.
Up until now, the verbal sparring was inconsequential by most standards.
Ms. Gonzales asked about their accountability to their respective donors. She pointed to Essel’s support from developers and Krekorian’s from the SEIU.
Essel adamantly denied that developers are contributing much money to her campaign. Her donors “want someone with business experience.”
She accused Krekorian of supporting Felipe Fuentes’ plan to develop the Verdugo Hills Golf Course through AB212.
Paul angrily denied the accusation claiming that Fuentes changed AB212 after he initially supported it. Krekorian said he is clearly on record of being against the development.
Regarding his support from unions, Krekorian said he has worked with labor to cut back on demands while serving as a Burbank School Board Member and Assemblyman.
The city’s employee compensation structure was next.
Approximately 80% of the General Fund is for compensation. Would either candidate support labor contract structures that allowed the City Council to exercise discretion in granting raises during difficult budget years, rather than play with staffing levels and affecting services?
Essel said her approach is to grow the economic base. Going forward, we have to change new contracts, but honor existing ones.
Krekorian said he preferred “collaboration to obstruction.” He cited his success with balancing the Burbank School budget and averting a 25% layoff.
Now it was time for the crosstalk segment; the gloves came off.
The candidates fired questions at each other.
Chris accused Paul of taking $15,000 from the insurance industry and supporting an insurance bill that would require all cars be equipped with GPS to track the moves of every citizen. There was some question as to the bill’s number. Chris mentioned AB2208. (I looked it up but could not find any language pertaining to GPS. However, I was viewing a summary. Perhaps someone can provide a link).
Paul said he has voted on close to six-thousand bills as an Assemblyman and cannot recall such a bill with that provision.
Chris replied, “You should read the bills you sign.”
It was Krekorian’s turn.
He cited his representation of about one-third of CD2 as an Assembly Member. He took pride in providing excellent constituent service.
He then said, “What have you done to work with the District before deciding to run?”
Chris responded by claiming she added jobs to the Valley while at Paramount and through her volunteer efforts. Her experience in creating jobs was valuable.
Paul countered, “So you’ve never worked for CD2? I didn’t hear you mention any CD2 accomplishments.”
Chris replied, “Wrong.”
Chris revisited the Krekorian/Fuentes connection and the $15,000 ad he funded for Paul’s benefit.
“So there was nothing going on with Fuentes and you and the Verdugo Hills Golf Course?”
Paul accused her of spreading “slanderous lies.”
“Ask Fuentes the question,” he challenged and added, “How do you explain the $50,000 independent expenditure from the painters and carpenters unions in DC?”
Chris responded that the painters and carpenters “did it by the book.”
“They probably viewed me as someone who could do something rather than a career politician,” she retorted.
“My business skills are needed.”
Paul said she was tied to the Mayor based on her downtown and law firm fundraisers.
“Over 300 of the Mayor’s supporters have contributed to your campaign. Wendy supports you. Dale Thrush is walking the District for you.”
Essel responded by announcing endorsements from City Attorney Trutanich and the Police Protective League.
Krekorian demanded, “Answer the question,” referring to his assertion about relationship to the Mayor.
Chris stated she had broad support and people think she can make a difference.
She then stated that Krekorian had raised over $1.5 million from his prior Assembly races and had the Mayor’s campaign staff working for him.
Chris concluded the segment by saying she could work in the corporate world for more money and not have to deal with being under the microscope, but she was motivated by service to the community.
Questions from the audience followed, but I had another commitment and had to leave.
I would appreciate any comments you have, especially regarding the audience questions.
Don’t forget –I will publish my comments by late tomorrow.
Posted by Unknown @ 11/07/2009 11:38:00 PM
58 Comments:
I think this is the Assembly Bill they were referring to:
http://www.consumerfedofca.org/article.php?id=560
I find nothing related to requiring GPS systems in cars in the bill. And, if my research is correct, that while the bill passed the Assembly, Huffman pulled it after making a deal with Poizner.
http://democrats.assembly.ca.gov/members/a06/newsletter_200808c.aspx
It appears that Chris was not speaking truthful. Her face showed that she wasn't sure.
Why isn`t Essel admitting that Villaraigosa and his machine are supporting her? J. Blackman, Ari Swiller etc. I guess she took a page from the liar`s book, Shallman`s.
How disappointing that neither candidate acknowledged lot size issues in their area with regard to water rates. Yes, a horse can consume one HCF a month and that should be considered. However, more telling in their district (ahem) is the size of lots. The present tier chart allows less water per lot size increase and virtually no additional water for any lot over an acre.
Unless the RPA is picked by the voters, that position will be a sham and a waste of money. Whoever appoints this person is the one the "advocate" will answer to. We know it cannot be DWP. We also know it cannot be the Council or Mayor.
" NCs are an important part of the planning process but City Hall appears to want to disempower them by requiring financial disclosure. They need more power, not less."
I disagree with this stance. If NC's are to have more power, wouldn't you want to know what their financial interests are?
I think financial disclosures puts NC's in a stronger position to demand more power and say to those who legislate matters in their community.
If an NC member pushes for something, wouldn't you want to know that she/he doesn't stand to gain financially? How can they make formal recommendations to Council without knowing they are or are not personally profiting from their recommendations? I realize it's a pain in the tush to submit these forms. However, how can I have faith in my NC without knowing their agenda is purely for their community and not for their financial gain?
Who has the video? I have to see it!
I am a NC member and in a competitive industry and if I was forced to show my income on a 700 form I would not Volunteer my time and input on the NC. The NC is not my job and I have not authority so no 700. My work has nothing to do with the city or anything I vote on if it did I would need to step out and if i did not then i would be braking the law. A 700 has never done anything but allow political hacks like Edsel to use them to harm others who are truly trying to help the community.
Terry
She kicked his ass. For a professional politician, he is a weak sister.
We need strong leadership in the council.
Chris Essel is THE MAN.
"DWP’s surplus to the city’s General Fund was also wrong."
Save that. Etch it in stone. When Krekorian wins we will hold him to DOING something about this. Talk is cheap.
Well, I agree with the previous poster, talk certainly IS cheap, but so are liberal promises.
If you want proof, just watch the "Health Care Bill" which is just another excuse for government to grow and our taxes to increase beyond anyone's imagination.
Chris Essel is a business person, not a professional politician taxer/spender.
We need her expertise in business to get us through our crisis in LA. All Kerkorian will be is another rubber stamp for the unions.
This country is F*CKED.
Terry-"The NC is not my job and I have not authority"
Me-Don't expect any authority if you are not willing to prove you have no conflicts.
Terry-"My work has nothing to do with the city or anything I vote on"
Me-Prove it. How can I know your vote is clean if you won't prove it.
Terry- "if it did I would need to step out"
Me-And we're to trust that you would step out based on information you are unwilling to share?
Terry-"and if i did not then i would be braking the law."
Me-How would anyone know you would be breaking the law? But, then, is that why you refuse to disclose? Are we to trust you'd be that honorable? You might be quite trustworthy, but I wouldn't know it and I wouldn't want you to have more authority under the circumstances.
Terry-Really, it's fine if NC's opt to accept the level of their existing non-power. I would agree; no need to disclose. However, if you want more say (that equates to the power to legislate &/or the authority recommend mayoral or Council action which is what I've heard NC's want) then you have to show all.
5:05AM wrote: "DWP’s surplus to the city’s General Fund was also wrong."
Save that. Etch it in stone. When Krekorian wins we will hold him to DOING something about this. Talk is cheap.
-----------------------------------
I agree. However, at this point, I think another lawsuit or court injunction is in order.
Good points Paul. I wish they would have been asked their take on the corruption or lack of leadership on the DWP. Shocking the Police Political League once again is buying city council members just like Zine, Koretz, Huizar, Smith so they can slam them with cop issues. Stupid, they had the audacity to critiize Bratton yet they continue to throw cops due money on political people.
Essel's got fellow Shallman clients wendy gruel and trutanich, bought her the L A Times but couldn't swing the Daily News for her, sold her out to the Police Political League. She's a real independent alright.
Sorry Joe but this is a good story by Tony Castro unlike that other paper reports the truth. Castro failed to report though as much as everyone like Beck and he's a good guy, he is Bratton's choice not Antonio. AV was to lame to decide for himself.
.....The campaigning has never really died down," said Regalado. "Antonio always seems to be campaigning, glad-handing, always running for something, even though he doesn't know what he's running for. In a sense, Antonio is back to perpetual campaign style, which has always been what he's done best," said Jaime Regalado, executive director of the Edmund G. "Pat" Brown Institute of Public Affairs at California State University, Los Angeles. "The mayor is trying to resurrect his image, and this is a shot in the arm." The campaign to sell the chief - and ultimately resell the mayor - couldn't come at a more-needed time, say City Hall watchers and insiders.
2:51 A.M.
Must be Shallman drunk, who else would be posting at that time.
I don't know what all the passion people have about this race.
I live in Tujunga this is pretty much a one sided race, I have received half a dozen mailers from Krekorian, not a single one from Essel.
Krekorian's people have knocked on my door twice and called me yesterday.
No knocks and no calls from Essel.
Whose idea was it to have Dale "Trash" canvassing for Essel?
He must be on Krekorian's payroll trying to cost Essel ST votes.
If that *^@# i working for Essel she can kiss away my vote.
Hatfield has it right, the debate was pretty much of a draw with a slight edge to Paul.
When he asked Essel what she had done for CD2 her response was very weak.
GPS systems? what does that have to do with this race.
Word is that a group of ST NC leaders will be endorsing Krekorian today.
Any one know who they are?
The Armenian Mafia are the ones backing and operating a big chunk of the illegal marijuana shops in the city. Look into it for yourself and you will see.
Also, don't just look into the campaign contributions candidates accept. Look for campaign contributions that were returned.
Check the names in recent Armenian immigration bust by federal authorities this past summer. Some serious charges for some serious crimes.
Be careful what you wish for. Be very careful.
that wasn't snl.
it was Sixty Minutes.
Ari Swiller did a fundraiser for Essel.
Interesting aspect to the discussion of neighborhood councils and disclosure is that the candidate that wins this special election wll be the new chair of City Council's Education & Neighborhoods committee, based on most recent committee re-assignments. That's where all the disclosure options have been vetted in the past.
They stands on this issue may be less academic than practical.
10:14
And your point is what? we should not vote for Krekorian because he is of Armenian heritage.
Its bad enough to be a bigot, your even worse; a cowardly bigot.
I can see the direction that the Essel campaign is going to take the last four weeks.
10:03
Then what is Essel doing with her money?
"Essel is a business person"
Really, what business has she run?
10:14
So Frank Sheftel works for the Armenian Mafia?
Then why is he endorsing Essel?
Hate to break it to all of you, No one cares about this election and we will be lucky to have 5% turn out.
Krekorian hate her lunch yesterday. Not that he is that good, but because she is so bad.
No one gives a shit who Nuch endorses, he only won because people hated Jack Weiss.
Best thing about Krekorian winning (did not support him in the primary), is all the Wendy staffers who will be out of work on December 9th.
Fellows the lines in the EDD offices are very long now a days, got to get up pretty early to get a ticket.
10:14
Your disgusting.
1016-
The format was originally 60 Minutes, but SNL memorialized it with the brilliant parody.
Paul Hatfield
10:14 shows how desperate Shallman and Nooch are getting with everyone slamming him and Cooley for their gratuitous war on all medical pot just as the statewide and national tides all turning the other way.
Blaming pot sales on Armenian drug dealers and hence, on Krekorian. An ethnic slur that could only come from a Serbian racist like Nooch. The Nooch the locals know in pedro. He only won because he and Shallman lied to so many people and groups, from Laura Chick and Doug (who they're now smearing, trying to make McIntyre into some left-winger which is ludicrous), the pot people, even councilmembers like Jan Perry.
Part of the background of their battle over AEG and him threatening to jail her is that he promised to be more sympathetic to her billboard positions than Weiss was. Weiss was the only one who voted against her 2 LED highway- side signs and that deal she'd cut with Clear channel, arguing that it could void bans in areas which don't want them. Including Century City - I remember she called him and all the billboard activists elitists over that.
Remember how she rode his Harley in the West Hollywood gay rights parade with Zine, she thought she had him in the bag. So Nooch turning on her shocked the s*it out of her. Say what you want about Weiss but he always did what he said. Essel pushing Nooch's endorsement shows how clueless she is with how fast his stock sank. Meanwhile the other Shallman client Wendy Greuel and he aren't exactly on friendly terms either.
If Dale Thrush is walking precints for Essel than she loses my vote. I just won't vote--but I hate that SOB and don't want him in any city office!
I am one of the STNC Board Members
that is endorsing Paul Krekorian.
Education and helping the Children, in the City of Los Angeles is what I fight for. I want to support someone that has some Education experience. Paul was on the Burbank School Board, and helped make positive changes. It's not about making motions to Improve LAUSD. We need a City Council Member that will stand up with and
back the Communities when Important, some times Dangerous, Issues, arise. I have spoken with Paul Krekorian and Chris Essel several times.
As an LAUSD Parent,
The decision to Support Paul Krekorian was a simple one, He has
children and he cares about education.
As a Community Member I want someone that I can trust to make the right Decision to protect
and improve the Community I live in.
Paul Krekorian gets my support Hands Down!
P.S. Dale Thrush is campaigning for Chris Essel, and he did come to my door.
12:22PM - Try as hard as you can, you cannot reinvent history. Jan Perry has long been behind the secret deals with AEG to get billboards when no other company was allowed to get them. Her slimy backroom deals in came conveniently and miraculously and I'm sure purely coincidentally to her getting a condo/loft in one of downtown LA's swishy developments when she was claiming bankruptcy and getting foreclosed on 'cause she couldn't pay her tax bills and her loan payments.
You are a fool, 12:22PM, if you think you can fool us into thinking of Jan Perry as some sort of victim to Trutanich's bullying.
You are obviously one of the business as usual shills and nobody on this blog is falling for it. Whatever you say about Trutanich and Berger, they're doing their job and standing up against favoritism an special interests in Los Angeles. That has you worried, doesn't it.
Finally, something good to read here on mayor sam and not all that rubbish that red spot posts.
12:22 PM = Jack Weiss.
When Jack gave corrupt people his word during one of his many backroom deals, he kept it.
Krekorian will be no different. All you people who are slobbering all over themselves thinking Krekorian is going to be a different kind of councilman, are fooling themselves. At the end of the day, they all turn out to be spineless weasals.
I mean, just look at his record. He was sworn in 9 months ago promising to represent the people in his district in Sacramento, and five months into it, he decides he needs another job.
He's not doing what's best for his constiuents, he's doing what's best for himself and his own ambitions. DON'T BE FOOLED!
5:37, the only ones "slobbering over themselves" are you and Shallman's clones. Talk about "weasels." Who "say and do anything to get elected, when they never even meant it, it's not even just empty words and fancy speeches, it's all lies." Gotta love Laura Chick's way with words.
5:37 - It's not like Paul was just elected. This was his second term. Why don't you disparage Wendy, in the Mayor's pocket, Greuel too. She left her post early!! And how do you reconcile that 7, yes 7, councilmembers have endorsed Essel, not counting the Mayor's backroom support?? And then there's our City Controller and our City Attorney. Bad, bad, bad. Want more of the same, then go with these corrupted representatived, want real change, vote Krekorian.
Krekorian, will be just another knee jerk liberal on the council indistinguishable from from any of the others. I don't always agree with Zine but at least he offers some change in thinking in the council. The others have never met a payraise they didn't like or a program they wouldn't fund, a fee they would not raise or approve stupid non-binding motion that waste council time. I tell you we need to change this deathgrip that the Democratic Party has in California and Los Angeles or we will all be sunk. We need to get some balance or we will drive out all the productive businesses and citizens out of this state.
7:23 give me a break. You're joking, right? So are the 7 councilmembers endorsing Essel, knee jerk conservatives? What's your point, shithead? That's what business as usual is, these endorsements of Essel. Not Krekorian. He's the outsider who has already done more in CD2 than Essel could ever dream. She has no clue, and neither do you. What's her claim to fame?? Being a high paid executive and lobbyist for Paramount (which doesn't. by the way, make her a business woman, what business has she ever run??). She's doled out money and perks to city councilmembers, and others. What a job. No real brain power required, no real decision making. Just report to the higher ups and smile, smile, smile. What a sham and shame on those who go along with this no talent airhead.
6:20 & 7:23 PM = goofballs. They're probably the same person. The Mayor, stooges, is backing Krekorian. You think he'd go against a Democrat?
Not sure why you blame "Shalman" for everything. He ain't running. Neither is Hapcopian. This race ain't about the stategists, it's about the candidates.
Krekorian is part of the Sacto problem and now he wants to bring mismanagment to L.A. No thanks, we're all stocked up here.
Krekorian campaign is running circles around Essel's in the actual fight in CD2.
All the rest is conversation.
Essel has lots of money, but not too much of it is trickling out of Shallman's pocket into the campaign.
I have gotten 5 mailers from Krekorian and 1 from Essel.
Dale Thrush lied to me the only time I had to deal with him.
If that asshole is supporting some one, the other person gets my vote.
And I don't even like Krekorian.
John Shallman= Charlatan
8:11, everyone's talking about Shallman obviously because Essel's his "project." And after the last fraud he foisted on us, I'd rather NOT vote for "change at any cost," for someone who's promising stuff she has never had to deliver and has no track record of.
In fairness, Essel's a whole lot smarter, nicer and more transparent having been in the city her whole life, but still, even if he's not perfect and who is, Krekorian has the experience and the knowledge of what each job entails. Conversely that soap opera Trutanich is way out of his league trying to meddle in other officials' jobs like the Controllers and mayor's and council's on policy involving who pays for funeral events, shaking down companies in the process, threatening to sue and ruin officials we may think are morons BUT they're his clients, he's not their prosecutor. He can advise what's legal, actions to follow, but not threaten to jail them with no impulse control- that's their call.
About his bullying behavior which backfired bigtime in getting things done, He tells Orlov this week, "I wasn't prepared for the politics of it." Gee, like that's NOT an important part of the job? We've spent millions training this novice, on salaries of brought-in top aides from Cooley, to cover his meddling all over while wrong, attracting lawsuits on crusades.
The message that a total lack of integrity, that lying to everyone with fake promises is "OK" because "everyone is so corrupt anyway, I'll just be worse," comes from Shallman. All FALSEtanich does is oppose the mayor on everything to make himself look good, or so he'd like - if we all think the mayor's an idiot, we should want him surrounded by people who help him for the good of the city. Only a handful of sourpuss SLAPPERS are still waving "we need a bully!" pom-poms. Essel says she didn't pesonally favor SB1818 when she wrote that letter, she was just doing her job. Isn't integrity about meaning what you say? She could at least have left writing that letter to someone else.
Sorry for Essel in a way - she does have real-world political know-how in how to get things done, unlike her endorser, but nowhere near Krekorian's. (And if she's touting Trutanich's endorsement right after Wendy's at the top of her list, that says a lot. Note she's also got Trutanich homegirl Janice Hahn. LeBonge, OK, he's Hollywood, ditto the ones with Hollywood interests.)
After the Nooch we see that knowing what the hell you're doing, actually being prepared for the job you want, being judged on what you've demonstrated not on your glib promises, is NOT a bad thing.
wow 9:22 PM - someone really hit a nerve with you.
The SS Shallman is sinking for good.
Essel is his last leaky vessel.
Nuch will have no impact on this election, for good or bad.
"Krekorian added that most (commercial) land owners “don’t give a darn” about communities and are “driven by downtown pro business interests.”
Well he is right about that.
Essel pledged to have every developer work with the District Council Office and the NCs before plans were formally developed.
Don't they already meet with city council members whose district the development is in or aren't they already supposed to be communicating?
This is new?
Every developer is going to work with the council office (duh) and all NC's (if anyone was smart and aren't they already supposed to?).
What a crock of shit.
Christine just keeps fucking up and nobody quite gets it.
STOP HER!
Remember 5:37, that Krekorian was sworn in 9 months ago and 5 more months have passed. Therefore, he is already 14 months into his term? Assemblyman only get 2 years, right? So he is only 10 months from having to run again anyway. He can't help it if the seat became available.
Stop trying to make him look worse than he is to try and make Essel look good, which is impossible.
The subject turned to a postmortem of the Station Fire. Chris said a summit meeting with the objective of producing an action plan was needed. “We have a budget problem,” she said.
Utterly brilliant analysis, Chris! Do you really live in the District?
We have had a couple of summits on the Station Fire already. If you think "summits" should be run the way the Mayor runs them, where Parke Skelton invites 29 speakers to agree with him, then yes, we should have a Parke Skelton/John Shallman Station Fire Summit.
But for now, the community is making strides despite Skelton/Shallman, not because of them. For now, the community is making strides investigating why the hell the County acted almost as much as firebugs as firemen, and it is NO THANKS to the handlers of either County Fire or LAFD.
What we need to do in the wake of the Station Fire debacle is community activism, not fake political "summits" with luminaries invited by political consultants and paid to agree with one point of view. This is one area where government, far too protective of corporate donors and corporate interests, is the problem, not the solution. The thought of either of these clowns doing a damn thing about standard gov't practice is ridiculous. I believe that next election there will be a "Station Fire" grassroots candidate, as the City's affordable housing debacles and "summits" produced Walter Moore.
1:44AM - only you could make him look worse than he already is. He was sworn in 9 months ago. He started running in this race 5 months ago, so he essentially started running 4 months into his new term. Where'd ya get the addtl 5 months? I know it's late and you were probably three sheets to the wind......
Krekorian = Political oppotunist.
This blog should really be reporting on the advances Dale Thrush has made on the women of CD2 over the years.
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